Was: Naval Ships, Now: Divine Intervention

[Scott Cohan]

>>side note : You could argue that, since humans came after the elves and are
shorter lived and less magical, they are inferior, so
>>every player would want to play an elf, right?

SC> Well, _I_ wouldn't consider them superior, because they have corresponding
limitations, but in a game such as AD&D, I've been in games where out of a party
of 12, I was playing 1 of the only 2 humans in the party, with 8 elves and 2
half-elves filling out the ranks, so it does happen.


>>This is true of religion, in this world or any other. If one religion had all
the answers everyone would follow it, right?
>> I think not, even if it had an answer for everything, if it was foreign to a
culture it would not take off, it would fizzle and die there.

Yes, like the way Christianity has fizzled and died in Asia, where it goes
against all tradition and culture.  Not.
>>There are many historical  supporting examples of this, especially in Eastern
Europe and China.

  SC> Yes, but there are also many historical counterexamples.  Look at the
  Christian conquest of India.  Follow our religion, you can eat all the pork
  you want and still go to heaven.  Believe it or not, many Hindus have stated
  that freedom from the caste system and their dietary restrictions (i.e. their
  culture) were major reasons contributing to their conversion.


>>Add to that Gods who are Visible, and you have a strong force to reckon with.
Why would someone willingly live out their life in
>>hopes of being THAT perfect virgin sacrifice to a Chaos God? Culture......Read
the Culture Book, under just about every nation the
>>religion section says they are fanatical. (THAT is a logical side effect of
direct intervention. Do you disbelieve a God smucking you
>>beside the head or not, if it actually happens?      No it hurts too much.)
Also, I'm not sure of this, because I don't have my books right here in front of
me, but I thought that the gods could _not_ intervene on the Middle World and
that Slidranth could solely because he has an avatar down here.>>Nope, they only
agreed that they WOULD
>>not, not that they COULD not. But hey, the gods of our legend always promised
everything to each other and us and more often
>>than not broke those promises if they thought they wouldn't get caught. So why
would a world based on our human knowledge be
>>set up any different?

SC> Actually, going back to the books, the only references that I can find are
in The Site Book,

"It [The Heart of Darkness] is the focus that allows Slidranth to reside in the
Middle World in defiance of the other gods.  Without it, he could not manifest
his presence and would be unable to return the dead to the Middle World."

"The presence of Mab in the Middle World resulted from a success by Temple Kota
in the year 293SA....After his summoning, Mab chose to stay--to extend the
dominion of Kototh in the Middle World."

The only other quote that might bear on the issue is from Book Three, page 5,
"The planes of existance in this game are called the UPPER WORLD, the MIDDLE
WORLD and the LOWER WORLD.  These planes are metaphysical fragments of the one
world that was sundered as a result of a war between the Gods."

So there is nothing that states that the gods cannot or will not interfere with
mortal affairs.  Perhaps they are reluctant to start another divine war in the
fear that they may completely destroy all three worlds.  It is noted that
Slidranth is defying the other gods in residing here, but evidently Mab's
presence doesn't upset them.  Slidranth is described as a Demi-god and only his
avatar is present in the Middle World, but Mab is the offspring of two deities,
although still described as a demi-god.  If Slidranth can ressurect the dead,
due to his presence here, why can't Mab do the same thing with Kotothi
creatures?


Let's face it, if all the gods were interfering all the time, we'd get something
like the Greek myths, only more messy.  >>and the
 >>point is?  That is why it's a Perilous Land....   ;)

  >Perilous, yes.  Stupidly chaotic, no.  If the gods can interfere all they
  want, than why don't they?  Why haven't the gods of Fomoria destroyed
  A'Korchu?  Why hasn't Metatron destroyed Clima, as the Bhamoti fervently
  desire?  If the high priest of Kototh can summon up Mab, than why haven't any
  Lawful deities been summoned to this plane?

  The problem inherent with full divine intervention is that it becomes a
  bidding war.  Let's take a simple harvest.  The 'good' gods and gods of
  fertility want the harvest to come in.  The Chaos gods want it to fail, in
  order to spread corruption and death.  Who wins?  Let's say the players are
  assaulting Mab ab'Mab in his tower and call upon Labbiel (the Bane of Kototh)
  to aid them.  He appears and helps in the fight.  Then, Mab ab'Mab asks his
  father Kototh for aid.  Labbiel asks his court-mate Gavreel to aid them in
  their fight.  Kototh summons Nebeth to aid him and Mab Ac'kota and Gywn ap
  Nudd to help their son out.  Labbiel and Gavreel ask Sraosha to protect the
  humans and summon Metatron to smite the Kotothi.  Then Tehuti and Soqed Hozi
  show up to keep things in Balance.  And Tiamat sends a tidal wave to swallow
  up that part of the coast because she is the "Eater of Land and the Enemy of
  Man".  Even a simple water crossing can become a duel between Tiamat and Zu.
  Where do you stop?  If you take it to the logical extreme (to the point of
  ubsurdity) every piece of food you eat can become a battle between the forces
  of fertility and corruption.  Every person born a battleground.  Now, there's
  nothing wrong with running your game that way, as long as you're consistent.

  This was a problem that I had with the otherwise exceptional "The Primal
  Order" books.  They had a wonderful system and framework made up for dealing
  with gods and divine powers and actions, EXCEPT, they could give no reason why
  the gods wouldn't give clear answers to divination requests or interfere with
  their follower's lives all the time.  Divine intervention should be the stuff
  of legends, not the hazards of everyday life.  Even if you set the chance at a
  low number, that's still too much.  One AD&D game I was in set the chance at
  the following:
  01 to Your Wisdom score = Good result (God grants your request)
  00 down to Twice your Wisdom score = Bad result (God punishes you for asking)
  with the chances being reversed for clerics, i.e.:
  01 to Twice your Wisdom = Good
  00 down to Your Wisdom = Bad.
  The penalty keeps people from making this roll all the time, but still.  Let's
  say I've just made a character.  The first thing I do is make a request for
  levels or riches or a magic item.  Even if I fail, I just make up another
  character and haven't lost anything.  Or, if you're about to die anyway, what
  do you have to lose?
  Other games have set it to a flat 1% with no penalty for failing a request.
  Just pray all day (1 prayer takes 5 minutes, 10 prayers an hour (rest breaks),
  100 prayers a day for 10 hours of praying, you're bound to succeed sooner or
  later.

  The way I handle it is simple.  The gods cannot interefere directly with
  events on the Middle World (Some sort of accord imposed upon themselves by
  themselves, with the gods of Balance being the enforcement arm of this
  accord).  None of the gods (well, okay, maybe one or two) want to see the
  Middle World destroyed.  It's hard to be the god of pestilence and disease, if
  they're no one left to infect.  I really consider Law and Chaos to be
  convenient mortal labels for the two opposing camps of deities.  Let's face
  it, if you're not Lawful, Metatron will smite you hip and thigh just as quick
  as if you were a demon-worshipper, if you're in his way.  These camps are
  further divided into sub-groups, the Courts.
     Priests would have some magic granted to them (whatever is in the
  Priesthood articles, I guess).  Divine intervention happens so rarely as to be
  the stuff of legends, as it, IMHO, should be.


  Scott Cohan