P&P v2 [Was: Re: Idea bounce]

[Choinski, Burt]

> Wout Broere [SMTP:w.broere at CT.TUDELFT.NL]
> || But the one percent can make a difference, but a small one and that
> is what
> || I like in P&P. The characters grow slowly, gradually during a game
> and not
> || with sudden jumps in between games like with Rolemaster. That is a
> part of
> || the game I like in P&P, and there are very little game systems that
> have
> || this property.
>
> I see that as the one major benefit to a percentile attribute system
> -- you seemingly advance in a constant state rather than a jumpy,
> quantum state.  However, when it all boils down I do feel that the
> difference between a 31 Agility and a 30 Agility, aside from bonus, is
> minimal.
>
> || When someone doesn't like this, why not choose a different system,
> possibly
> || convert part of the Perilous Lands background to that system (e.g.
> the HERO
> || conversion by Burt). There may be a widespread sentiment that a
> percentile
>
> That wasn't me.  It was Scott (I think), but I asked about it.
>
> || system is undesirable (I don't know of it), but on the other hand
> that
> || implies that there is a number (small or large) of players who just
> desires
> || such a system. Why should all systems be the same?
>
> They shouldn't.  As I mentioned in an earlier note the shift in
> systems has been toward a minimalist style in the past few years, a
> style that does not suit me at all.  I'm hoping that any new systems
> in development out there will reverse the trend before we get to the
> stage of using coin flips to resolve skills. :)
>
> || Well I still disagree. The system makes you choose between social,
> physical
> || (fighting), and magical concepts. Now a magic user chooses magic as
> his
> || priority. This limits his characteristics and/or wepon proficiency,
> which
>
> Technically, it only limits his INITIAL abilities.  Eventually,
> assuming he lives long enough, he could be just as mean a fighter as
> he is a wizard.
>
> || can be increased only so much during play. Even if I shift it
> around so to
> || work around this problem as much as I can, that results in poor
> social
> || abilities. So choosing a primary development area limits me in the
> other areas.
>
> This is all a factor of native genotype (attribute rolls plus
> multipliers).
>
> || subsequent levels. Probably not the best example, but one I find
> always very
> || enjoyable is the language proficiency levels in Runequest 3rd ed.
> || There are only five (or six memory fails me) levels, the lowest
> being equal
> || to the skill of saying "Ugh", followed by level 1 where you can
> point your
> || finger and say "Want buy leg of lamb that!" and the highest meaning
> || something like an enraged customer coming in and accusing the
> butcher: "The
> || leg of lamb I have acquired in your etablishment yesterday morning
> must have
> || been in a state of putrefication even before the change of
> ownership took
> || place and I would like, no demand, a reconstitution of funds to
> take place
> || at the briefest time span convenient to my liking, which is right
> now!" or
> || something equally ridiculous.
>
> Actually, the language skill was a 0-100% like all other skills and
> was increased normally.  However,
> having a skill of 0-20% counted as the "ugh!" range of skill.
> Technically, someone with a 20% is more articulate than one with a 1%
> -- that table was mostly for a rough guide.  In general, when
> communication is attempted ADD the two skills together  (limited to
> DOUBLING the lower skill) to find the chance of successful
> communication.  Thus, someone with a 20% skill has a 40% chance of
> getting the point across with a native of the language, but with
> someone of skill 10% the chance is only 30%.
>
> || And at those moments I like a system that has slowly, gradually
> increasing
> || abilities and skill. The sudden jumps in other systems were the
> first things
> || that annoyed me. People and tastes differ.
>
> I find the non-percentile ELs okay.  With an effective maximum of 16
> (your milage may vary), there is enough range for the raw beginner and
> the world class master.  And since skill increase is done with points
> you are still getting a "constant" type increase, it's just that you
> only notice a "real" difference when you roll over to the next EL.
>
> Gads, I'm certainly not endorsing any change to 5 EL levels!
>
> One thing I feel HAS to be in any new version, and in any game I run,
> is the "increase by use" way of skill improvement.  I HATE the idea of
> getting x points at the end of the night to spend towards skills.
> Back when I ran GURPS I fudged in such a method (with every successful
> use of a skill during the session, mark a tic on the sheet.  At the
> end of the night roll 1d6 for each tic -- a roll of 6 gave THAT SKILL
> 1 point, a 5 gave a 1/2 point.  Now granted, since GURPS skills topped
> out in cost after a certain point (unlike P&P's NELx skills), they got
> pretty powerful in combat after a while...but that's about it.  In
> their other skills they were pretty wimpy.
>
> If you don't use it or specifically train it, you don't get better (I
> have never dealt with skill loss through non-use -- more trouble than
> its worth in realism.)
>
> || I want a system that preserves the flavor of P&P too. IMO that
> system is P&P
> || as it stands, only in a new edition. NO changes to the rules, only
> a new
> || printing, with all the background materials and rule extensions
> published in
> || Heroes included in the basic set. Basically I want the possibility
> to buy a
> || new set of books because the old ones are slowly disintegrating
> even though
> || we are using photocopies in daily use since day one.
>
> Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen.  As much as I like the
> system, there enough flaws, quirks and oddities (much as we love them)
> that will turn off new players (which is what we want).  AH is not
> likely to roll the presses for us alone -- they need the new blood to
> ensure a cash flow to fund more stuff, in a never ending flow until
> all other systems are crushed :)
>
> And there are many places the old rules needed reworking -- several
> spells are really out of whack with regards to play balance, some
> concepts fleshed out, others trimmed.  P&P needs more than just a new
> printing of the old books.  It is a bit worn and long in the tooth,
> but unlike many other older systems (like AD&D) there is still an
> underlying core of excellent concepts that make it a great system: the
> "increase by use" skills, skill levels limited by attributes rather
> than starting from attributes (the biggest problem with GURPS, IMHO),
> the CEL+EL concept, etc.
>
> || What you want is a different system (game mechanics) but the same
> background
> || (as I gather). I am of the opinion that such game mechanics are
> available on
> || the market today or have been available in the recent past (recent
> in frp
> || terms defined as 5 years.) Then there will be the tedious work of
> converting
> || the background.
>
> What I see as optimal would be a new system that retains all of the
> best concepts of P&P, with a more cohesive set of resolution
> mechanics.  This system needs to have the same FEEL as P&P, not
> necessarily the same mechanics.
>
> || Most new systems are to my opinion of the few levels, huge
> differences type,
> || most probably diceless too. What I am looking for is a game of
> great
>
> Don't get me started on diceless games. :)
>
> || flexibility, with that randomness in the character generation. And
> very
> || important, without the need to choose one of the archetypes as
> fighter,
> || mage, thief, priest at the start of the game and thereby largely
> determine
> || what areas the character can develop in, what weapons it can use
> etc. That
> || kind of system is becoming rare, even extinct if we say that P&P is
> extinct
>
> Not rare enough.  It fits some genres, not all.  I could live with a
> set of "career" descriptions provided to make character generation
> simpler.  For example:
>
>     Marentian Knight Package (xxx expertise points)
>         EL5 Heavy Sword
>         EL5 Horsemanship
>         etc...
>
> || (*) Dr. Zovaster is one of my all time favorite characters. Posing
> as a
> || harmless seller of love potions and a cure-all potion (coloured
> water) he
> || was actually a Chaos mage. Favorite spells were Wounds and
> Quarrels.
>
> Funny, mine was a Balance wizard named Thulos "Mage for Wage".
> I never got to play him much, but that is the only character I
> remember. :)
>    -- Burton