[PnP] Weapon and Armor making again.
Choinski, Burton
Burton.Choinski at matrixone.com
Mon Oct 2 17:04:28 CEST 2006
The following notes are taken from the basic Harn rules. I'd rather grab info from the web from an actual armormaking source, but I still have not found one with the info I want. These numbers seem at least somewhat "realistic".
Harn armor by type has costs/prices/times figured by the percentage of body covered. I am subtracting the 10% for head coverage, so all values based on 90%. Costs are in harnic pennies for reference only)
Cloth: Cost 36p, Time 90h, Price 90p (Labor: .6p/hour, Mat 40%)
Leather: Cost 63p, Time 180h, Price 180p (Labor: .65p/hour, Mat 35%)
Ring: Cost 99p, Time 810h, Price 630p (Labor: ~.65p/hour, Mat 15.7%)
Scale: Cost 144p, Time 1170h, Price 900p (Labor: ~.65p/hour, Mat 16%)
Mail: Cost 72p, Time 1800h, Price 1350p (Labor: .71p/hour, Mat 5.3%)
Plate; Cost 135p, Time 2700h, Price 2250p (Labor: .78p/hour, Mat 6%)
This data is actually somewhat usable if we assume that they have done their research, and grant a fluff factor to even out and simplify numbers. Let us proceed with a little data interpretation (with number rounding to make things clean)...
Non-metal: Material cost is 35% price
Mixed: material cost is 15% price
Metal: material cost is 5% price
Given: an armorer is a specialist valued at 2G/month (200CC). Given 30 days in a month, for an average 10h per day his cost of labor is 0.666CC/hour.
Let's try a leather helmet. 4CC. Minus material cost, the remaining labor indicates that 3.9 hours are required to make up the selling price. Call it 4 hours to make a leather helm.
Does this seem reasonable? It has the advantage of being internally consistent with the economic system. I would assume that this 4h time is for your average armorer (EL40). Harn has a value enhancement table where higher EL makes better stuff overall (ie. Even on a failure, one with the highest skill still makes a tolerable item, when the EL0 guy pretty much wastes the materials). Such a system may be adapted from our entertainer table (roll 2d10, subtract Armorer/10, add armor difficulty rating -- <5 very good, 5-7 good, 8-11 fair, 12-16 poor and >16 complete crap are the result ranges). Presumably one could double your time for a negative modifier on this roll (used by low skill apprentices), while skilled armorers could work faster and get a positive modifier. I would assume that very good gets you more armor DV, fair or less will be lower. This will obviously tweak the price. Complete crap means that the armor is junk and you lose material (25% at 16, +10% per point over 16).
Continuing the experiment. Metal helm -- 20CC. Minus materials, this is 28.5 hours (call it 29 hours). 3 days for an armorer to whip you up a metal helm. This seem reasonable?
Banded Ring: 200CC (mixed) -> 255 hours (about 26 days)
Plate Mail: 4500CC (metal) -> 6418 hours (642 days, nearly 2 years).
The plate points to an obvious economic/realism imbalance. The Harnic plate takes about 1/3 this time (still a long time). Does this price jacking indicate a need to downgrade plate price? Or are we going to consider it to take that long?
Comments and continuations on this thread (suggest or work other numbers welcomed) would be good.
, perhaps one could add 25% more time for each EL10 inferior skill, and subtract 10% for each 10EL superior. Thus an EL10 apprentice could make the same leather helm
_______________
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-----Original Message-----
From: pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl [mailto:pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Scott Adams
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:38 PM
To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List; The Powers and Perils Mailing List
Subject: Re: [PnP] Weapon and Armor making again.
At 09:11 PM 10/1/06, Choinski, Burton wrote:
>Yes once again, with active games comes the request for rules. That, or I'll have to start savaging my other RPG's and the internet. :P
Grrr. Err. I had a big 3 paragraph reply typed up then hit the wrong key and the email client went bye bye. Grrrr. So I won't type it up again. Too lazy. But let's see if I can sum up.
* Not all blacksmith wages are equal
* Location location location is key
To further sum up the point a blacksmith shop in a sleepy town would make 10x less than one in a castle in times of war. He might only be doing mugs and house metal work. A shop in a town would do more and a shop in a city even more business. A shop in a castle would do even more. A shop in a castle during a time of war would do weapons and make the big bucks.
I had a website I found blacksmith wages on reference to Roman times. The price you give was a bit too high. But I'd take in the above into account since location is key.
Sorry I lost the first reply it was better. This is typed in haste :) But you get the jist.
As to rules I'm not sure what your asking for?
Armor Making? Armor Repair? I found 3 files on the subject. Both should be on the website the 3rd file was a email I guess from the list (usnure who made it) extracted eons ago. It had some notes on armor. Its not formatted as it was a straight email to text file. Is this what your wanting?
All files unaltered from original source and format. of website or such ...I have a full directory of just about every pnp piece of thing of importance.
I know the 3rd's format sucks but that's how it was originally :)
Guess I deleted the person who wrote it :<Looks like it goes back
to 2004 you could get the month in the header and check the archives for the thread?
--------
Armour Modifications - by Andrew Avramenko
Armour Modifications
by: Andrew Avramenko
This is one of many changes we made where the Shield skill becomes a category
skill and you increase levels in each shield type separately. Also, cost and
weight of armour is modified by a persons size factor.
Size Factor (SF) = height" + weight/2.6 (RN)
Ave. Size = 142
Cost of Armour = SF/142 * Armour Cost
Weight of Armour = SF/142 * Armour Weight
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³ SHIELD TYPE ³ COST ³ AVAIL ³ WT ³ AV ³ DF ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Buckler ³ Wooden ³ 6CC ³ 100% ³ 4 ³ 5 ³ +2% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Banded ³ 2SC ³ 80% ³ 6 ³ 7 ³ +2% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 3GC ³ 60% ³ 8 ³ 9 ³ +2% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Target/Round Shield ³ Banded ³ 4SC ³ 100% ³ 10 ³ 8 ³ - ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 6GC ³ 80% ³ 12 ³ 12 ³ - ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Heater Shield ³ Banded ³ 8SC ³ 85% ³ 15 ³ 10 ³ -2% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 8GC ³ 60% ³ 20 ³ 14 ³ -2% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Viking/Large Round ³ Banded ³ 9SC ³ 50% ³ 20 ³ 10 ³ -3% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 9GC ³ 20% ³ 24 ³ 14 ³ -3% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Kite/Tower Shield ³ Banded ³ 1GC ³ 40% ³ 22 ³ 12 ³ -4% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 10GC ³ 30% ³ 26 ³ 16 ³ -4% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Body/ Hoplite Shield ³ Metal ³ 20GC ³ 25% ³ 30 ³ 18 ³ -5% ³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÙ
Andrew Avramenko
Last edited 22 November 1996 by W.Broere at CT.TUDelft.nl
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Armor Repairing
The time to repair a fully damaged suit of armor is equal to 25% of the
time required to make it from scratch, as specified in book I. If the armor
is not fully damaged the time is equal to: (Damage taken)/(total DR) *
(time to repair fully damaged suit of armor).
The cost to have your armor repaired by an armorer is 1GC per day, the time
required calculated with the above formula.
Wout Broere, Mathijs Tuynman
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Message-ID: <20040125201204.4D43B6C72 at mailhost1.tudelft.nl> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:11:54 +0100 Reply-To: Powers and Perils Fantasy Roleplaying Game Mailing List <POWERS-AND-PERILS at geo000.CITG.TUDELFT.NL> Sender: Powers and Perils Fantasy Roleplaying Game Mailing List <POWERS-AND-PERILS at geo000.CITG.TUDELFT.NL> From: Alex Koponen <akoponen at MOSQUITONET.COM> Subject: Re: Armor Repairing and Labor Costs To: POWERS-AND-PERILS at geo000.CITG.TUDELFT.NL
Okay, lets try this again.
http://abroere.xs4all.nl/pnp/armor_repairing.htm says
"The cost to have your armor repaired by an armorer
is 1GC per day".
That seems a bit high to me when a specialist can be
hired for 2 GC per month and a magician for 4+ GC per
month. Indeed an EL80 armorer can be hired for 80CC a
week as an instructor, see Rule 2.211.
Perhaps (EL/7)CC (or roughly1SC) a day would be more
appropriate for repair work.
The above is based on the economic factors in the rules.
If the economic factors are rewritten then the amount would change.
Note: The labor costs for constructing various types of
armor presuming an EL70 armorer being paid 1SC per day
are: AV Days Labor Pay Listed Price Armor Helmet 1 9 9SC 8CC/1SC/10SC 4CC 2 16 16SC 20SC/30SC/40SC 2SC 3 25 25SC 160SC 10SC 4 36 36SC 450SC/2500SC* -- 5 49 49SC 1500SC -- *requires Artist skill, probably takes extra time (perhaps days x 2).
Careful analysis reveals these numbers are NOT very realistic for quilted or leather armor.
Let me try again using the minimum EL required for making a particular AV of armor with pay being ELCCs per week.
AV Days Min. EL Labor Pay Listed Price Helmet 1 9 1 0.13SC 0.8SC/1SC/10SC 4CC 2 16 11 2.51SC 20SC/30SC/40SC 2SC 3 25 21 7.5SC 160SC 10SC 4 36 31 15.94SC 450SC/2500SC* -- 5 49 41 28.7SC 1500SC -- This works better. Presumably the higher AVs would also require more expensive facilities.
I think that higher ELs should reduce the time needed to make an item.
Perhaps success rolls should be required (which would effectively make higher ELs faster on average).
Any suggestions on consequences of success rolls?
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