[PnP] Weapons skills: pnp Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2
Bessie Hadley
eleabess at sbcglobal.net
Thu Nov 3 13:48:15 CET 2016
Concerning knives, the two skills are quite different - hand melee fighting is one skill; throwing knives is a ranged skill. Knowing how to handle a knife in a fight is one skill. getting a thrown knife to stick into its target versus hitting either handle-first or bouncing/dropping off the target is another skill.
Even the types of blades are different, although one can learn to throw a fighting knife. An assassin's blade is slender & quick to draw & throw & most likely sharp on both edges.
So that's two skills to master. (Darn it, anyway - lol)
But you're right, it can be confusing to a newbie - but just as likely it's wishful thinking & the newbie knows it.
With a grin -
Bess L. Hadley
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 11/2/16, pnp-request at list.powersandperils.org <pnp-request at list.powersandperils.org> wrote:
Subject: pnp Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2
To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2016, 9:52 PM
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Today's Topics:
1. WEapon Courses (Scott Adams)
2. Re: WEapon Courses ( Thomas O. Magann
Jr.)
3. Re: WEapon Courses (Scott Adams)
4. Re: WEapon Courses (Wout Broere)
5. Re: WEapon Courses (Scott Adams)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 15:09:52 -0400
From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
Subject: [PnP] WEapon Courses
Message-ID: <mailman.175.1478148731.2766.pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
It is fascinating to see the game from a
new player today.
I have 2 new players (3rd on way). One who
works with me
is brand new to game very new. So i
had to write up
primers and such for him. The second
has played but
has gotten confused on skills. I
don't blame him now
that I look at it. SKills are so
second nature to me
after 30 years i even forgot this stuff.
Weapon Courses
The game lists these weapon
courses..
Weapon Skills
Weapon skill is initially gained in a
specific Weapon Type. The
starting EL, unless a Special event
specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
The basic courses that can be learned
are listed in the table.
Weapon Courses
Course Weapons
Axe
Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and Battle
Axe
Bow
Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
Crossbow
Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
Dagger
Throwing Dagger, Fighting Dagger
Heavy Lance
Heavy Lance
Heavy Sword
Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
Light Lance
Lance**
Mace
Club, Mace, Flail, Hammer, Sap
Miscellaneous Throwing Rocks, Bottles,
Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
Polearms
Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
Repeating Crossbow Repeating
Crossbow
Scimitar
Scimitar, Tulwar
Spear
Spear, Javelin, Pike
Sling
Sling, Handle Sling
Sword
Sword, Short Sword***
Throwing Axe
Throwing Axe
War Staff
War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
Whip
Whips of varying lengths
Now his confusion was
on Dagger. Why there are Fight
and Thow at 2
costs. So to the new player I can
see his issue.
First to him he was
looking for Course Cost to Learns.
Had to explain that's
the basic Skill Cost.
Second had to explain
that more than likely Richard
goofed and placed
Dagger and Spear wrong.
So Buying Dagger -Fight doesn't as
the courses imply give you
throw for free and vice
versa. So there is confusion there.
Maybe we should have a FAQ for this
stuff. In today's
world we should have Youtube videos
:) But the most confused
part to me for new folks is Initial
Increases. I believe
this is on Wout's site. But
explaining that to a new person
is not as easy.
So you guys think Richard goofed or did he
intend to say buying
one dagger gives you second? :)
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 14:57:38 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: " Thomas O. Magann Jr." <tmagann at earthlink.net>
To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
Message-ID:
<12973619.18856.1478123858125 at mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Throwing a dagger and fighting with a dagger are two
different skills. Hence two prices. Throwing Axe is listed
oddly compared to daggers and spears, but points this out
for throwing axes, so I assume it carries over to throwing
daggers, which are listed later. And I suspect that throwing
Axe was listed as it was on purpose.
A throwing dagger has different stats than a fighting
dagger. Hence, even when using it to fight, it's a separate
fighting dagger weapon, much as club and mace are different
maces. And an Elven versions of both are swords, at least
for fighting purposes. I assume throwing an Elven dagger is
just a variant of thrown dagger. One requiring it's own
learning path.
Spears have two prices as well (fight style and throwing
style), so I don't think he got them confused. Light Lance
is specifically noted as a special case in which one skill
covers both. It seems to be the only such skill that covers
both.
Basically, the Combat skill list breaks down style costs by
category, while the Weapon Skills list just breaks down the
types of weapons in each category, and doesn't need to
double list such things.
The fact that Axe and Throwing Axe are listed twice while
daggers and spears are not simply means that ONLY throwing
axes may be thrown, while all daggers and spears may be. No
matter what the dagger is called or how it is designed.
Of course, I use the printed books, v1. If v2 is different,
it may be less mistake and more that it was still a work in
progress when he died, and incomplete or still in the draft
stages.
But that's me. I don't see a mistake in V1. quite the
opposite, I noticed Throwing Axe as the odd man out, and
assume it meant something. I may well be wrong. I could be
reading too much into it, but it seems to make sense to me.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
>Sent: Nov 2, 2016 12:09 PM
>To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
>Subject: [PnP] WEapon Courses
>
>
> It is fascinating to see the game from
a new player today.
> I have 2 new players (3rd on way). One
who works with me
> is brand new to game very new.
So i had to write up
> primers and such for him. The
second has played but
> has gotten confused on skills. I
don't blame him now
> that I look at it. SKills are so
second nature to me
> after 30 years i even forgot this
stuff.
>
> Weapon Courses
>
> The game lists these weapon
courses..
>
>
>Weapon Skills
> Weapon skill is initially gained in
a specific Weapon Type. The
> starting EL, unless a Special event
specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
> The basic courses that can be
learned are listed in the table.
>
>Weapon Courses
Course Weapons
>Axe
Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and
Battle Axe
>Bow
Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
>Crossbow
Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
>Dagger
Throwing Dagger, Fighting Dagger
>Heavy Lance
Heavy Lance
>Heavy Sword
Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
>Light Lance
Lance**
>Mace
Club, Mace, Flail, Hammer,
Sap
>Miscellaneous Throwing Rocks, Bottles,
Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
>Polearms
Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
>Repeating Crossbow
Repeating Crossbow
>Scimitar
Scimitar, Tulwar
>Spear
Spear, Javelin, Pike
>Sling
Sling, Handle Sling
>Sword
Sword, Short Sword***
>Throwing Axe
Throwing Axe
>War Staff
War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
>Whip
Whips of varying lengths
>
>
> Now his confusion
was on Dagger. Why there are Fight
> and Thow at 2
costs. So to the new player I can
> see his issue.
>
> First to him he
was looking for Course Cost to Learns.
> Had to explain
that's the basic Skill Cost.
>
> Second had to
explain that more than likely Richard
> goofed and placed
Dagger and Spear wrong.
>
> So Buying Dagger -Fight doesn't
as the courses imply give you
> throw for free and vice
versa. So there is confusion there.
>
> Maybe we should have a FAQ for
this stuff. In today's
> world we should have Youtube
videos :) But the most confused
> part to me for new folks is
Initial Increases. I believe
> this is on Wout's site.
But explaining that to a new person
> is not as easy.
>
> So you guys think Richard goofed or
did he intend to say buying
> one dagger gives you second? :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>pnp mailing list
>pnp at list.powersandperils.org
>http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 21:14:16 -0400
From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
To: " Thomas O. Magann Jr." <tmagann at earthlink.net>,
The Powers and
Perils Mailing List <pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
Message-ID: <mailman.176.1478148731.2766.pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
This is obvious to me and you. My point it is not to
new folks. The
phrasing.
I use 2 dagger skills.
But the way the basic rules imply you should get both.
Get Mace you get all those under it. Easy.
Then you look at Dagger great you get both.
But then you look at skill table and scratch head. Why
is it 2
different costs to buy?
But I thought Dagger gives us both?
See? That confusion is a bit misleading. Had
this one with my new player.
Now that I look at it i cna see why.
Maybe wout should edit it in his great new pd that
Dagger gives you free OEN of the two.
Spear give syou one of the two.
All others you get at el0 as listed.
That's all I'm saying.
A FAQ on this might be useful.
I hadn't even looked at the rules this in depth in
years. When he
emailed me asking about Courses i was like what????
The term I had to lok up.
Sure enough its there. Been so long.
First the rules imply that there is this Weapon Course buy
cost? So
his first question is where was the cost forX skill.
Oh? So its on skill chart But that's one skill.
So that is also a
bit unclear.
So after figuring out no Course buy in but a Skill buy in he
then
asked why Dagger gives 2 when its 2 different buy ins.
To us this is second nature.
But to new folks it is harder.
In 30 years I can't say how many times I've had to explain
the
Initial increases section. ;)
At 05:57 PM 11/2/2016, you wrote:
>Throwing a dagger and fighting with a dagger are two
different
>skills. Hence two prices. Throwing Axe is listed oddly
compared to
>daggers and spears, but points this out for throwing
axes, so I
>assume it carries over to throwing daggers, which are
listed later.
>And I suspect that throwing Axe was listed as it was on
purpose.
>
>A throwing dagger has different stats than a fighting
dagger. Hence,
>even when using it to fight, it's a separate fighting
dagger weapon,
>much as club and mace are different maces. And an Elven
versions of
>both are swords, at least for fighting purposes. I
assume throwing
>an Elven dagger is just a variant of thrown dagger. One
requiring
>it's own learning path.
>
>Spears have two prices as well (fight style and throwing
style), so
>I don't think he got them confused. Light Lance is
specifically
>noted as a special case in which one skill covers both.
It seems to
>be the only such skill that covers both.
>
>Basically, the Combat skill list breaks down style costs
by
>category, while the Weapon Skills list just breaks down
the types of
>weapons in each category, and doesn't need to double
list such things.
>
>The fact that Axe and Throwing Axe are listed twice
while daggers
>and spears are not simply means that ONLY throwing axes
may be
>thrown, while all daggers and spears may be. No matter
what the
>dagger is called or how it is designed.
>
>Of course, I use the printed books, v1. If v2 is
different, it may
>be less mistake and more that it was still a work in
progress when
>he died, and incomplete or still in the draft stages.
>
>But that's me. I don't see a mistake in V1. quite the
opposite, I
>noticed Throwing Axe as the odd man out, and assume it
meant
>something. I may well be wrong. I could be reading too
much into it,
>but it seems to make sense to me.
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
> >Sent: Nov 2, 2016 12:09 PM
> >To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
> >Subject: [PnP] WEapon Courses
> >
> >
> > It is fascinating to see the game
from a new player today.
> > I have 2 new players (3rd on
way). One who works with me
> > is brand new to game very
new. So i had to write up
> > primers and such for him.
The second has played but
> > has gotten confused on
skills. I don't blame him now
> > that I look at it. SKills
are so second nature to me
> > after 30 years i even forgot this
stuff.
> >
> > Weapon Courses
> >
> > The game lists these
weapon courses..
> >
> >
> >Weapon Skills
> > Weapon skill is initially
gained in a specific Weapon Type. The
> > starting EL, unless a Special
event specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
> > The basic courses that can be
learned are listed in the table.
> >
> >Weapon Courses
Course Weapons
> >Axe
Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and
Battle Axe
> >Bow
Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
> >Crossbow
Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
> >Dagger
Throwing Dagger, Fighting
Dagger
> >Heavy Lance
Heavy Lance
> >Heavy Sword
Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
> >Light Lance
Lance**
> >Mace
Club, Mace, Flail,
Hammer, Sap
> >Miscellaneous Throwing Rocks,
Bottles, Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
> >Polearms
Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
> >Repeating Crossbow
Repeating Crossbow
> >Scimitar
Scimitar, Tulwar
> >Spear
Spear, Javelin, Pike
> >Sling
Sling, Handle Sling
> >Sword
Sword, Short Sword***
> >Throwing Axe
Throwing Axe
> >War Staff
War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
> >Whip
Whips of varying
lengths
> >
> >
> > Now his
confusion was on Dagger. Why there are Fight
> > and Thow at
2 costs. So to the new player I can
> > see his
issue.
> >
> > First to him
he was looking for Course Cost to Learns.
> > Had to
explain that's the basic Skill Cost.
> >
> > Second had
to explain that more than likely Richard
> > goofed and
placed Dagger and Spear wrong.
> >
> > So Buying Dagger -Fight
doesn't as the courses imply give you
> > throw for free and vice
versa. So there is confusion there.
> >
> > Maybe we should have a FAQ
for this stuff. In today's
> > world we should have
Youtube videos :) But the most confused
> > part to me for new folks
is Initial Increases. I believe
> > this is on Wout's
site. But explaining that to a new person
> > is not as easy.
> >
> > So you guys think Richard goofed
or did he intend to say buying
> > one dagger gives you second? :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >pnp mailing list
> >pnp at list.powersandperils.org
> >http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
>
>_______________________________________________
>pnp mailing list
>pnp at list.powersandperils.org
>http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 05:38:29 +0100
From: Wout Broere <broere at powersandperils.org>
To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
Message-ID: <b159ad7e-f1d6-f989-ac86-af7aa8bb5b6d at powersandperils.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
My take has always been that
1) the general rule holds that you first learn a weapon
course (e.g.
heavy swords) and gain ALL weapons in that class at EL0.
This costs the
Cost to Learn. (25 expertise in this case.)
2) After that each weapon is advanced individually, see per
EL
increase/cost NEL (NEL x 7)
Dagger, Spear and Throwing Axe are special in that they
differentiate
between fighting and throwing.
3) Learn Dagger - Fight and you gain the skill to fight with
all dagger
types (Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0. This only
covers
fighting, not throwing
4) Learn Dagger - Throw and gain the skill to throw all
dagger types
(again Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0. Increase
skill to
'Throw a Fighting Dagger' and skill to 'Throw a Throwing
Dagger'
separately after that.
Someone may want to learn to throw fighting daggers, and the
rules allow
that. They are just not as good thrown as throwing daggers
are. And
throwing daggers are not as good to fight with.
Wout
On 02-11-16 20:09, Scott Adams wrote:
>
> It is fascinating to see the game from
a new player today.
> I have 2 new players (3rd on way). One
who works with me
> is brand new to game very new.
So i had to write up
> primers and such for him. The
second has played but
> has gotten confused on skills. I
don't blame him now
> that I look at it. SKills are so
second nature to me
> after 30 years i even forgot this
stuff.
>
> Weapon Courses
>
> The game lists these weapon
courses..
>
>
> Weapon Skills
> Weapon skill is initially gained in
a specific Weapon Type. The
> starting EL, unless a Special event
specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
> The basic courses that can be
learned are listed in the table.
>
> Weapon Courses
Course Weapons
> Axe
Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and
Battle Axe
> Bow
Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
> Crossbow
Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
> Dagger
Throwing Dagger, Fighting Dagger
> Heavy Lance
Heavy Lance
> Heavy Sword
Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
> Light Lance
Lance**
> Mace
Club, Mace, Flail, Hammer,
Sap
> Miscellaneous Throwing Rocks, Bottles,
Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
> Polearms
Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
> Repeating Crossbow
Repeating Crossbow
> Scimitar
Scimitar, Tulwar
> Spear
Spear, Javelin, Pike
> Sling
Sling, Handle Sling
> Sword
Sword, Short Sword***
> Throwing Axe
Throwing Axe
> War Staff
War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
> Whip
Whips of varying lengths
>
>
> Now his confusion
was on Dagger. Why there are Fight
> and Thow at 2
costs. So to the new player I can
> see his issue.
>
> First to him he
was looking for Course Cost to Learns.
> Had to explain
that's the basic Skill Cost.
>
> Second had to
explain that more than likely Richard
> goofed and placed
Dagger and Spear wrong.
>
> So Buying Dagger -Fight doesn't
as the courses imply give you
> throw for free and vice
versa. So there is confusion there.
>
> Maybe we should have a FAQ for
this stuff. In today's
> world we should have Youtube
videos :) But the most confused
> part to me for new folks is
Initial Increases. I believe
> this is on Wout's site.
But explaining that to a new person
> is not as easy.
>
> So you guys think Richard goofed or
did he intend to say buying
> one dagger gives you second? :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pnp mailing list
> pnp at list.powersandperils.org
> http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 00:50:50 -0400
From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
To: broere at powersandperils.org,
The Powers and Perils Mailing List
<pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
Message-ID: <mailman.177.1478148731.2766.pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 12:38 AM 11/3/2016, you wrote:
>My take has always been that
>
>1) the general rule holds that you first learn a weapon
course (e.g.
>heavy swords) and gain ALL weapons in that class at EL0.
This costs
>the Cost to Learn. (25 expertise in this case.)
Yep.
>2) After that each weapon is advanced individually, see
per EL
>increase/cost NEL (NEL x 7)
Ack.
>Dagger, Spear and Throwing Axe are special in that they
>differentiate between fighting and throwing.
Theres the rub...
>3) Learn Dagger - Fight and you gain the skill to fight
with all
>dagger types (Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0.
This only
>covers fighting, not throwing
Eureka! That must be what Richard must've
though. That The Course
for dagger gives you both as Fight. But the connation
implies
throwing dagger isa new skill. But now that you word
it that way it
makes sense. You fight WITH a throwing dagger but ot throw
it.
That makes more sense then the way its done now. As
the new player
read it Different. I always bought it as 2 separate
skills myself.
But that's more clear the way you phrase it.
Maybe i should add a * in case new players need copy of
those rules...
>4) Learn Dagger - Throw and gain the skill to throw all
dagger types
>(again Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0.
Increase skill to
>'Throw a Fighting Dagger' and skill to 'Throw a Throwing
Dagger'
>separately after that.
>
>
>Someone may want to learn to throw fighting daggers, and
the rules
>allow that. They are just not as good thrown as throwing
daggers
>are. And throwing daggers are not as good to fight
with.
Yep. I like how you word it.another
I can explain it that way if he is still confused.
I was never at this level 'new' at this point since '83 so
my
experience was like of course its 2 skills...but I like how
you
explain it. I will append that sectio in case another
new player
needs help and i send them my file.
Great job!
------------------------------
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------------------------------
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