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<title>RE: [PnP] Help...</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>More notes. Happy reading, Scott. :}<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>http://cma.soton.ac.uk/HistShip/nautical.htm<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.science.sakhalin.ru/Ship/Vlad_E1.html">http://www.science.sakhalin.ru/Ship/Vlad_E1.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.hamilton-scourge.city.hamilton.on.ca/glossary.htm">http://www.hamilton-scourge.city.hamilton.on.ca/glossary.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm">http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/navigation.htm">http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/navigation.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a href="http://nabataea.net/ships.html">http://nabataea.net/ships.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.cedarland.org/ships.html">http://www.cedarland.org/ships.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/01paul/links/NewtonMStranslation.pdf">http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/01paul/links/NewtonMStranslation.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://cma.soton.ac.uk/HistShip/shlect11.htm">http://cma.soton.ac.uk/HistShip/shlect11.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/sea.html">http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/sea.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/shiptype.htm">http://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/shiptype.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href="http://www.oceansatlas.org/unatlas/uses/transportation/seemore1.html">http://www.oceansatlas.org/unatlas/uses/transportation/seemore1.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>http://www.archaeonia.com/science/engineering/shipbuilding.htm<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Choinski, Burton
[mailto:Burton.Choinski@matrixone.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 27, 2005
2:09 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> The Powers and Perils Mailing
List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [PnP] Help...</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Just wanted to make a few additional
comments as to construction time. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>build time will also be limited by materials at hand. Even if
it takes 5 days per boat, if you run out of lumber or have to start
transporting it to the site you will be limited that way. All
construction times assume all material is at hand, and all gathering times
assume that materials are left at the gather site. If you have to
transport any sort of distance, figure on 40# per cubic foot ( or 12 board feet
1”x1’x12’)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>One could DOUBLE the manpower-per-boat-per-day limits by running a
night shift at DOUBLE cost. Thus, to HALVE the construction time you will
TRIPLE the price.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Notes on
logging and board feet: <a
href="http://forest.wisc.edu/extension/publications/42.pdf">http://forest.wisc.edu/extension/publications/42.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rummaging
about I found <a
href="http://www.cabi-publishing.org/pdf/Books/0851994199/4199Intro.pdf">http://www.cabi-publishing.org/pdf/Books/0851994199/4199Intro.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In there
was a note: “…in order to build one galley almost 300 ha of oak
forest and 122 ha of conifer forest, managed with selective cuttings were cut, while
2-3 ha and 2 ha, respectively were needed if the clear cutting method was
adopted…”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A 20
mile hex is 346 square miles, about 89,717 HA (hectares) if pure, usable
wilderness. I would assume anywhere from 50k to 80k for forest hexes, 5k
to 10k for plains hexes, 10k to 50k for hills or mountains (mountains and
northern woods having a higher percentage of conifers),<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have
no idea what “galley” the source is talking about, but I’m
pretty sure this is 1500-1700’s type ships, not ancient world
triremes. Scale as needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The
managed use allows for perpetual forestry, clear-cutting makes it effective
empty of trees. Given the degree of elder and sidhe influence in the
world, I doubt clear-cutting is anywhere as common as it was in the real world
(except in those areas that don’t give a crap, like Clima or
A’Korchi who are raiding other people’s lands.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Choinski, Burton
[mailto:Burton.Choinski@matrixone.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 27, 2005
9:01 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> The Powers and Perils Mailing
List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [PnP] Help...</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have to
chime in that I think the "labor cost" method, as used in the GURPS
building construction rules that I adapted for Wout's site is the most accurate
way to figure this out. It would, as a research project, involve several
steps:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>1)
Determine the types of laborers required (Foresters, for raw timber, carpenters
and shipwrites (sp?) for construction, sailmakers for rope and sail,
etc). Determine the basic pay per day of labor.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2) Find
some baseline ship for your modeling. If you have the data for several
ships, all the better as you can make a more accurate model. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>3) For
each ship determine the quantity of raw materials (lumber). Determine
time in man-days to produce the raw materials and multiply by the gatherer cost
(foresters). </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>4)
Determine the number of man-days to build the model of ship, based on quantity
of lumber going into it. Multiply this by some fudge factor to reflect
shipyard quality and vessel quality (degree of ornamentation or
craftsmanship). You need to figure this one out, Scott. Obviously,
certain shipyard cities will get the job done faster. Raw build cost is
labor cost times number of man-days. Increase this labor cost by 25% for
every factor of 5 man days to represent overseers and other overhead (i.e. +25%
for 5 or more, +50% for 25 or more, +75% for 125 or more, etc). </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>5)
Determine man-days to produce the rigging (if any) or ors (carpentry).</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>6)
Construction time is limited by ship size. Assume no more than 5 men per
10' length+width+depth (Thus, a 50' long by 10' wide by 10' deep warship is
limited to 35 men of work per day -- you cant pile on a thousand men to finish
it in an hour). </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>NOTE:
Time in step 6 may need to be tweaked -- the 5 per 10' was just a number off
the top of my head. You man need to look at historical models to
determine a better number.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: Scott Adams [<a
href="mailto:longshot@cybermax.net">mailto:longshot@cybermax.net</a>] </span></font><br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:22
PM</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: The Powers and Perils Mailing
List</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: [PnP] Help...</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Still
working on my ship supplement but thinking ahead I could use some help.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Ship construction shouldn't be a
big issue. The big issue will be costs in</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>terms of build costs or final ship buying
costs. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I could
tackle it various ways from collection of all parts (anchors, wood,</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ropes, oars, etc.) to form a final
price. Or I could use a basic system</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>based on 80-90% of most ships the
wood/hull. Based on a simple area of</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>wood or one piece of wood figure
out size and then determine a hull prices</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>then buy other gear for it.
Etc. If anyone knows of any good web</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>suggestiosn in this area let me
know. or house rules or such. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I could
even decompile a price like price of Trireme and work DOWN from</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>there and decompile the price and
other aspects from a final price.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----------</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On a SIDE
note. Richard or anyone..</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Serpent
Women - </span></font><br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>1) The regeneration is this
regenerted for the next phase the damage or is</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>in your gmae over a full phase after
or set number of phases? Just curious.</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2) The change from serpent to women
is one phase or is there a house rule</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>anyone come up with? Richard?</span></font>
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Longshot
- ZC of AdventureNet International Echomail Network</span></font> <br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Fringe BBS - EWOG II - 904-733-1721</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Telegard / Allfix Beta Site</span></font>
<br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Website: <a
href="http://users.cybermax.net/~longshot" target="_blank">http://users.cybermax.net/~longshot</a></span></font>
<br>
<font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ICQ: 24436933</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________</span></font>
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