<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV>We all figured the blood was no good since it was not donated from a live dragon.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Up until that point the characters, while powerful, were pretty much "flying under the radar" as far as the powers above ae concerned, but this event (I told them) has them noticed. I figured that at this point they are now being monitored by Kototh to see what they are up to, and said monitoring is with a negative bias. presumably if they continue to hinder Kotothi aims Avatars of some form will be sent to deal with them. If that comes up I have to start to figure how much CDF of shit-storm heads their way for the first contact.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Buy for now they are not actively trying to hinder Kototh -- the dragon was in their way. But the Hunfrithi presence is now known to the Kototh.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I was talking with my brother about the meat thing. I was also figuring the meat to be poisonous, since nearly all Kototh creatures use poison to some degree or another and it fit with the Kotothi mindset, but the taint idea sounds good as well.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Mar 28, 2007, at 9:15 AM, Sylverrs_ dragon wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="background-color:"><DIV class="RTE"><P>My thoughts -</P><P>1) An elder dragon is not just a Kotothi creature. It is viewed as a son of Kototh.</P><P>2) At the point they are at, the blood is worthless. It must be taken while the dragon still lives to be of any value.</P><P>3) The meat is either poison or a progressive taint that damns the eater. Which depends on the mood Kototh selects for his vengeance.</P><P>Finally, it's your game. Do what you feel is right. Sounds like you have a good one going.<BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif"> <HR color="#a0c6e5" size="1"> <DIV></DIV>From: <I>"Tobie Bonahoom" <<A href="mailto:bonahoom@hotmail.com">bonahoom@hotmail.com</A>></I><BR>Reply-To: <I>The Powers and Perils Mailing List <<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>></I><BR>To: <I><A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A></I><BR>Subject: <I>RE: [PnP] Dragon skinning blues...</I><BR>Date: <I>Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:20:46 +0000</I><BR>>Well, to start with - and I am sure you have thought of this, <BR>>however just need to bring it up -- this was a Kotothi dragon, so <BR>>that would make it a magical beast, which makes some of the <BR>>possibilities come to the front of my thoughts.<BR>><BR>>One, anything made from it would have the Kotothi alignment attached <BR>>to it, unless the players can come up with a way to purify it.<BR>><BR>>Two, Kototh might be a tad pissed off about one of his greater <BR>>creatures being killed - especially if there was an elf of the Sidh <BR>>alignment involved. He might just do something about it quickly <BR>>(unless this dragon was of no real value to him).<BR>><BR>>Three, are they going to haul all this hide and scales to a place or <BR>>build the pits and curing and everything right there. As this will <BR>>take a minimum of 30 or 40 days to just get the hide cured and <BR>>tanned, before making anything with it.<BR>><BR>>Fourth, don't know if you are taking any of the magical properties <BR>>into place here, however because it was as dragon, most of them <BR>>inherit magical affinities that can come into play. With that <BR>>possibility you could also make the curing and armor making faster <BR>>or harder, with having to have a mage helping the out with the <BR>>process.<BR>><BR>>Just my quick thoughts on the matter for what you put into this. I <BR>>would definitely have the rest (teeth, bones, talons, blood) be a <BR>>bit trickier as just getting those pieces off the dragon could kill <BR>>them with some of the wild magics that can run through them. Also, I <BR>>remember too that the blood still has properties even though they <BR>>did not get it from the dragon while it was alive.<BR>><BR>>Tobie Bonahoom<BR>><BR>>>From: Burton Choinski <<A href="mailto:bchoinski@comcast.net">bchoinski@comcast.net</A>><BR>>>Reply-To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <BR>>><<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>><BR>>>To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <<A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A>><BR>>>Subject: [PnP] Dragon skinning blues...<BR>>>Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:50:23 -0400<BR>>><BR>>>101 ways to skin a dragon...<BR>>>---------------------------------------------<BR>>><BR>>>Well, the last session was an interesting one, and all sorts of <BR>>>plot undercurrents are springing up. The players managed to get <BR>>>their 20- Hunfrithi force to the hills west of Caldo without human <BR>>>detection. They left 10 at the chosen site and headed back with <BR>>>the other 10 to make a report to the elder.<BR>>><BR>>>On the trip out they been detected by something (they blew their <BR>>>ambush chance, it made it). It followed and monitored trhem until <BR>>>they left the Caldan area.<BR>>><BR>>>When they arrived back, the players noticed an Elder dragon <BR>>>(Kototh) flying high over head, sort of keeping pace with the <BR>>>group, but not attacking.<BR>>><BR>>>Silly players, they decide to taunt it in order to get it down to <BR>>>where they can attack it. I have the main warrior character make <BR>>>his case and make an influence chance ... 01! Holy crap -- you <BR>>>just flippled off the dragon and now he's coming in.<BR>>><BR>>>Over the course of the battle the dragon pretty much flew at 100' <BR>>>or so, huffing up a flame on the main tank. Now this character <BR>>>has a very high MDV to begin with (character), plus he is immune <BR>>>to 5 levels of magic as a special (yea, it's gross, but these are <BR>>>our old 80's characters and we decided that if we reupped this <BR>>>once-a-month game they would be doing big things).<BR>>><BR>>>As the battle went on, the tank was getting slowly burnt up. The <BR>>>elf was doing his best with the bow and was getting the draggon <BR>>>nibbled down (side note: this was the first time the new SIZE <BR>>>rules were really felt and there was quite the heated discussion <BR>>>on it. see below). The dragon was getting weaker, but since it <BR>>>refused to grapple with an obvious combat monster the tank would <BR>>>be done before it was. They gambled on another taunting to get <BR>>>the dragon close whough for the law wizard to cast a spell -- <BR>>>killing light.<BR>>><BR>>>And they did it. That kototh dragon had the biggest look of <BR>>>suprise on it's 3 heads.<BR>>><BR>>>-----------------<BR>>>Ok, now they have the dragon and they want to "loot the body". And <BR>>> of course, with no rules in the books on this it comes to rule <BR>>>makeup time. Comments are very welcome, especially since the next <BR>>>game is this sunday (the 1st).<BR>>><BR>>>Okay, first off we figured this elder dragon was 30' or so. A lot <BR>>>of that, obviously, is tail and neck. Nothing to go on for <BR>>>weight, so I had to play with numbers.<BR>>><BR>>>An eagle scaled to 30' would weigh 12,000#.<BR>>>A Komodo dragon scaled to 30' would weigh 10,000#<BR>>>A nile crocodile scaled to 30' would be 3,300#<BR>>>A salt water croc scled to 30' would be 5,500#.<BR>>><BR>>>Ok, splitting the difference from reptialian and large wingspan <BR>>>bird, I come up with 7,500# or so. Looking at it again, and <BR>>>rounding numbers for taste, we come to 8,800#. This means that <BR>>>dragons weigh in at 100#/AHP.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>MEAT:<BR>>>This all assumes that dragon meat is even edible, much less Kotothi <BR>>> dragons. Assuming it is, the obvious plan is to preserve what <BR>>>they can of the "best" meat and sell it as a novelty. I presume <BR>>>they will be using the wizard's preservation spell to keep it okay <BR>>>for now (have to investigate spell limits).<BR>>><BR>>>presumably we are talking top-grade cooks for this. it looks like <BR>>>EL20 is about fair for your normal trained cook, with EL40 for a <BR>>>"x2" cook. Assuming the meat is nothing special I suppose that <BR>>>EL40 is sufficuent to cook it given the instructions on <BR>>>preparation, but presumably requires character-class cooks to <BR>>>actually figure out those instructions of how to cook, season, or <BR>>>otherwise make it edible. I guess we can figure on losing at <BR>>>least some of the meat in experimentation.<BR>>><BR>>>Looking into it online, it looks like herbivores come in with a <BR>>>wide range of "meat ratios" , but fumbling the numbers a bit and <BR>>>rounding for ease of use it looks like wild herbivores come in at <BR>>>25% weight for meat and domestic herbivores at 50% weight. The <BR>>>remainder is waste and non-meat products (bone, blood, intestines. <BR>>>(Domestic is higher since it is raised for meat).<BR>>><BR>>>From Wik: "Beef is first divided into primal cuts. These are basic <BR>>>sections from which steaks and other subdivisions are cut.When <BR>>>looking at a diagrams such as the ones below, note that the closer <BR>>>to the middle back, the more tender the meat is. Since the <BR>>>animal's legs and neck muscles do the most work, they are the <BR>>>toughest; the meat becomes progressively more tender as distance <BR>>>from "hoof and horn" increases."<BR>>><BR>>>One would assume that would normally apply to other animals, but <BR>>>dragons have a big honking set of wings that impact the area where <BR>>>the sirloin would be. I guess by this rule of thumb, the tail meat <BR>>> is what ends up being the tenderest, with the rest being <BR>>>relatively tough. Also, I figure that as a flying beast at least <BR>>>hal it's weight will be in the huge wings, and there will be <BR>>>hardly anything usable in that, so cut all yields in half.<BR>>><BR>>>With beef, "the good cuts" (Sirloin) end up being 10% of the meat <BR>>>weight. About another 20% are "fair" cuts (roasts and chuck). The <BR>>> rest is stew meat or burger.<BR>>><BR>>>So this 8800# dragon will render 1,100# of meat, of which 110# are <BR>>>the tenderest cuts and another 220# are decent steaks and roasts.<BR>>><BR>>>Preservation does not indicate a quantity limit -- Give the base <BR>>>time I assume the original intent was a man-day of food (3FP, or <BR>>>3#) that could be preserved for travel. To keep it simple, I <BR>>>suppose we can figure the effect is a combined value -- at EL4 we <BR>>>have an effect of 32 -- this is one man-day of food preserved <BR>>>untouched for 32 days, or 32 man-days of food left safe and <BR>>>unspoiled for 1 day (even if it's full of mayo :) or any range in <BR>>>between. Presumably the caster can refresh the spell each day, so <BR>>>if need be he can spend it all on quantity, but the time is never <BR>>>less that a full day.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>HIDE:<BR>>>The tank character is an armorer, so he wants the hide to make <BR>>>leather armor from. An elder dragon's AV is 6, but this is on a <BR>>>30' beast (of which we can figure that about HALF that is body). <BR>>>The question becomes one of "how much of this AV is due to <BR>>>thickness, and how much is due to properties?<BR>>><BR>>>As a flying creature, weight does become a premium, so a good <BR>>>portion of the AV is due to properties of the hide. many of the <BR>>>larger reptiles that are ground based seem to hit around AV2, so I <BR>>>can feal comfortable with have a base of 2 for larger creature <BR>>>(increased for size, decreased for flight). If we consider dragon <BR>>>hide to be scaled, an actual dragon's hide is a lot like scale <BR>>>mail or lamilar -- AV2 in raw hide, with AV4 in overlapping <BR>>>plates.<BR>>><BR>>>Your average modern cow can be peeled for about 50 square feet of <BR>>>hide. This is presumably fairly thin and needs to be doubled up <BR>>>when making leather armor (to get AV1). When a cow is layed out <BR>>>it's pretty much a squarish rectangle, but a dragon would be more <BR>>>drawn out. Given a main body size of 15', we can probably look at <BR>>>about 25' (body plus some usable tail and necks) by 6', or about <BR>>>150 square feet of hide and scale (about triple that of a modern <BR>>>cow, or five times that of a medieval cow). It takes about a week <BR>>>to prepare raw skin into leather, though a process of soaking, <BR>>>scraping, tanning (often using the brains of the creature as a <BR>>>part of the tanning mix) and smoking. Presumably the dragon hide <BR>>>will need a bit more work. I think a good guess is that it will <BR>>>take at least four times as long (twice as long for the size and <BR>>>efort to soak and scrape, and twice as long for the smoke time to <BR>>>cure it). In addition, one will be going somewhat slower so as to <BR>>>not losen the scales before the hide is fully cured, so ut the <BR>>>time by another 2 factor to SIX times as long. My cost estimates <BR>>>have it at 1SC to cure a cow hide into leather. A dragon hide <BR>>>will presumably require more expensive (and probably caustic) <BR>>>materials, so I would have it be at least 1GC in materials as a <BR>>>minimum for the hide alone. Presumably the scale would need even <BR>>>more treatment so that they would not loosen from the hide, so I <BR>>>would up the material cost by 4GC more for the scales for a <BR>>>minimum total of 5GC.<BR>>><BR>>>Ok, so how much leather is needed? About 4# of leather go into <BR>>>leather armor (by the books) which is about 8 square feet of 8oz <BR>>>leather (8oz per square foot). Cow hide is easily thich enough for <BR>>> this, but we obviously have to thicken it up by doubling over <BR>>>when you make armor. Call it 15 square feet of cowhide for leather <BR>>>armor. If we go by the same rule of thumb, the underlying hide of <BR>>>the dragon is normally AV1 right off the bat and thick enough to <BR>>>not need doubling (and in fact cannot be so, since we havethe <BR>>>scales on the outside). The scales themselves only provide AV3 <BR>>>since they are stiffer and don't provide the coverage they did on <BR>>>a live dragon. Accounting for waste, call it 10 square feet of <BR>>>hide for AV4 dragonscale leather, with a weight of 10# for the <BR>>>hide alone. Assume the scales are tough and thin, but with an <BR>>>equal weight, so this dragonscale armor would weigh 20#.<BR>>><BR>>>Construction?<BR>>>Given all that wonderful dragon leather, how long will it take to <BR>>>form? The underlying hide will take at least twice as long to cut <BR>>>and sew. The armorer is not actually cutting the scales (hard as <BR>>>plate and cannot be hammered or shaped like for metal armors) but <BR>>>instead cutting out the leather underneath to form the peice, which <BR>>> is then sewn together much like normal leather armor.<BR>>><BR>>>In my armorer rules I tried to figure out appropriate times to make <BR>>> armor based on the sale price and material cost. If an armorer <BR>>>makes 2GC per month then obviously that is the sale price of all <BR>>>his armors after taking into account materail cost. By my <BR>>>figuring, leather armor takes a tad less than a day to make (1SC, <BR>>>with a material cost of 4CC. Labor value is 6CC. 200CC/30 days <BR>>>is 6.667CC per day). using the same concept and a few assumptions, <BR>>>we can generate the numbers we need.<BR>>><BR>>>Assuming a final price of 40GC, and materials value 200x that of <BR>>>leather (for comparison, steel has a value of 10x that of leather), <BR>>>I jiggered the material% until the numbers lined up. It works out <BR>>>to 240 days of work to account the armorer's labor costs in order <BR>>>to justify the 40GC of sale price. Now this is a special item, so <BR>>>I'm tweaking the umbers a tad. One, any armorer who can do this <BR>>>is obviouly skilled enough to justify a greater rate. If we <BR>>>figure a rate of 5GC/month, that would assume labor is actually <BR>>>100 days. But that still seems awfully long just for cut and sew <BR>>>(essentially) thick leather. I'm willing to cut the time by a <BR>>>third (round to 30 days, or one month) to call it a "luxury" <BR>>>peice...any armorer who has the chance to make it can make one and <BR>>>then relax the next 60 days.<BR>>><BR>>>That's enough for this tome. The other items of Question are TEETH <BR>>> and BONES. Any suggestions there?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>_______________________________________________<BR>>>pnp mailing list<BR>>><A href="mailto:pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl">pnp@abroere.xs4all.nl</A><BR>>><A href="http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp">http://abroere.xs4all.nl/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp</A><BR>><BR>>_________________________________________________________________<BR>>Exercise your brain! 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